Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: Experiencing a small, contained faith? Tired of settling for less? Well, this podcast is going to help you live out your faith in a spacious room because you were made for bigger things.
Well, hello and welcome to this week's spacious room leaders talk episode. And it's about being prepared to take a stand and laying your needs down for the sake of others. And I want to introduce my really good friend, Ivana McNeil. She is a wife, a mother, and she is a campus pastor, and she has a wealth of leadership gold nuggets that she's going to bring today. So welcome my.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: Oh, hello. Hello, dear friend. Thank you so much for having me online.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much for joining us in the spacious room. It's great.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: I love everyone.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: So for the listeners at home, just tell us who you are. And for me, if you know Ivana, you love Ivana. That's pretty much in a just, you know who you are as a leader and what's life looking like for you right now?
[00:01:42] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Well, as you said, I'm a mom, I'm a wife.
Yeah. Campus pastor. And been doing those journeys for a wee while now. But truly, I guess when I describe myself, I just like to say I'm a girl who loves the Lord and so wants to live for him in whatever expression and season of life I'm in. And, yeah, life takes lots of turns, doesn't it? That's for sure. And we just want to do it well, don't we? Just want to love our God, really?
[00:02:17] Speaker B: Well, I've known you for what, 17 years?
Isn't that just crazy? It's a long time we've watched our children grow up, and now they're all adults and doing their thing.
It's not that we've got any older at all, though, Ivana.
[00:02:37] Speaker A: Not at all.
Yeah. If I keep dyeing my hair.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: That'S it. I've gone. The whole wisdom highlights, you know what.
[00:02:51] Speaker A: Have maybe one day, maybe.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: It's a journey in itself, right? It's a journey.
[00:02:57] Speaker A: It sure is.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: So we are not going to talk about hair colors. We're actually going to be talking about Esther and how she became queen and what a fantastic book Esther is.
If you're not a great reader, it's a great place to start because it's not many chapters, but it is such a rich story of being prepared to take a stand and how she laid her needs down for the sake of her people. And we can learn so much from Esther's leadership and her preparation. And this is what we're going to have a conversation about to. When you read Esther, what was your first thoughts with the story? Because it's so rich in different facets of the story.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: Sure is.
[00:03:50] Speaker B: So what's your thoughts with the characters and the whole premise of the story?
[00:03:55] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think as I reread Esther, and I was listening to the Bible being read to me, and you're right, it's not long, it's just ten chapters. So quite an easy read. But I was reminded again that Esther's story isn't a fairy tale story.
Sometimes when you can think of Esther, you just think the glamorous, you know, she rose up for her people. But you forget that Esther was a real woman, a young girl who had suffered. Know, the first part of her story is the loss of her father and mother. And I paused again and I was like, oh, gosh, I totally forgot that Esther had already, in her life story, had suffered tragedy and loss and grieving. What that would have looked like in that time, for that young girl to have had that happen, and just the richness then of her cousin Mordecai, as that story unfolds and we get to meet him in the writings of scripture and see how wise he was and what kind of man he was and what a big heart he had to take her in and raise her like one of his own daughters. And just reading through those chapters again and looking at the different characters in the story, you can glean so much, and we really can. We can glean things that we could do in life and use that wisdom in our own lives, but then also the things that probably we shouldn't do that aren't wise.
[00:05:36] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. And that's just like the first few paragraphs, isn't it?
And that whole adoption and that whole theme of we are being adopted into a different family and the kingdom family and. Yeah, all the facets of Mordecai, actually.
Yeah. Even before she gets to the.
[00:06:06] Speaker A: Mean, if we think about leadership, right. Sometimes people look at their life story and the mess of what their life story may have been like and write themselves off and say, well, I'll never amount to much. I'll never be able to be a leader because I don't have that beautiful life story that just flows. And I went from this to this to this to success, if we call.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: Leadership like that, excess leadership.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: But this is what I love about scripture and the rawness of the life stories that we do have the privilege to just get a little glimpse into that they're written real, and it doesn't leave out the not so good parts of the story.
It wants us to feel. The writers of the scriptures want us to feel the grief in her story. At the moment, we're looking at Esther. So they want us to feel that. They want us to see that life wasn't easy for this young girl. They want us to see that there were a lot of things that were taken out of her control. They weren't her choice. It wasn't her choice to go into the palace?
[00:07:12] Speaker B: No, not at all.
[00:07:13] Speaker A: It wasn't her choice to have to then go and live with her cousin and be raised in a different home, even though it was family, extended family.
And sometimes in life, that's what it's like. It's not always our choice. And the leadership path isn't always our choice.
[00:07:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's that whole positioning, isn't it? Ivana, she was positioned with Mordecai and then positioned in the palace, and that's a leadership journey that you are positioned and placed for the next part, for eventually where you need to be. And God so orchestrates, when you look back on your own leadership journey, you go, oh, my gosh, if I hadn't met that person or done that, then.
[00:08:00] Speaker A: I wouldn't have been there.
[00:08:01] Speaker B: And right or wrong or if it goes pear shaped or it goes, well, God uses it, doesn't he?
[00:08:08] Speaker A: He does, absolutely.
And that's the thing, isn't it? We have to prepare and we've got to be wise in our lives as best as we can, but then also understanding that. Yeah. Uses all things and works all things together for our good. And he'll use the brokenness or the mistakes or the mess or the tragedies to keep us on the path that he wants us to know, line us up for the call that he's placed upon our lives. And this beautiful girl, Esther, started off her journey and she had no idea. She had no idea that she was going to become the queen and have to stand in the gap for so many people.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah.
[00:08:52] Speaker A: And I think maybe if she did, she may have ran.
[00:08:55] Speaker B: Yes. If she'd have been told, this is what's going to happen. That's the thing. We want a, b and c in our story, but it's like God's going, if I tell you, you're going to bolt. That's right.
[00:09:06] Speaker A: Yeah. We'll write ourselves off all the time.
[00:09:08] Speaker B: We will. Yeah. And the fact that she was an ordinary girl, that just gives me comfort. It's just like she wasn't born with the right postcode or none of that. She was just, like you said, thrust into a position that she's like, okay, I'm here now what do I do? Now we get, like, Queen Vashti.
We write her off, too, a little bit. When you read the story, she's this independent woman who goes, I am not dancing before the king. And it's almost like she's rebellious.
But really, when it says he wants to parade her beauty before the nobles and to wear a crown, was it just the crown that she was going to wear? And that whole shaming and that whole culture of, if it was just going to be the crown, then she's like, I'm not going to parade in front of these drunken mob. Know, I don't care if you're my husband and you're the.
So I think we can go. Oh, yeah, Queen Vashti has to go. So Esther comes in. But really, if you really read the scripture, you think if you were Queen Vashti and she obviously was a leader because she's in that queen position, how would you.
[00:10:36] Speaker A: Right. That's right. I mean, just rereading the story and seeing what kind of party this was and how long they had been partying for and where the king's like, don't limit their drinking. They can drink as much as they want. And I was the same. I was like, I don't quite know if I would have wanted to go and walk in front of them, parading myself, regardless of what they wanted her to do or how I was like, maybe I would have been the same. Maybe I would have said, no way. You're all just drunk, and I don't want all that happening.
My heart goes out to her as well. Absolutely, yes. Another woman in the story.
Yeah. Where men, I guess, can do whatever they wanted to do at that time.
[00:11:26] Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah. And the whole cultural aspect of it, but obviously, in the story context, for Queen Vashti to say, no, I'm not doing it. It sort of said, the know, his advisors were like, well, if the people see the queen saying no to you, they're going to totally rebel as well. So he has his position, of course, of leadership.
What's the word?
Just to insulate and look after.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: That's right. Protect.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: Yeah. That's the word I'm looking for. Protect. Yes.
[00:12:08] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So we'll move on a little bit with the story.
So Esther's made queen, but you know what stuck out for me, Ivana, I don't know whether it did for you, but she is placed under the care of that. Well, the king's eunuch.
[00:12:27] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:28] Speaker B: And he's in charge of all the women, and she has all these beauty treatments and that, and then the preparing of her to meet the king.
But she listens to him.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: Yes, she does.
[00:12:47] Speaker B: She really does. Listen to what? I mean, it took a long time to get to the king because obviously he had a lot of concubines, and that's what they did in them days.
But just that preparing again to lay her needs down to go, what does the king want? What do I bring to him when it's my turn to go?
There's wisdom in that. Like you talked about wisdom before, there's such a wisdom in that.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: There is. And I think in part of Esther's preparation, her relationship with Mordecai, it says that she listened to his counsel, you know, when he said, don't disclose the family that you're from or your heritage.
And she listened like she didn't go into that harem and the palace boasting about who she was and everything that was going on in her life and where she's come from. She listened to Mordecai and leaned into his wisdom. And here, like you've just expressed, again, we see that playing out with the eunuch, where she leans in and listens to his wisdom and counsel. So I think she was already had ears to hear and an eye to see and look for that.
And it found her favor. It goes on, doesn't it, to express how he really took care of her and he made sure she was cared for and treated well, and she had women attending to her. And, yeah, I was like, wow, wisdom can draw that into your life. When you've got ears to hear and eyes to see, you'll draw wisdom and wise people around you, because you're always leaning in and you're always trying to learn and remembering that you don't know it all. It doesn't matter what level of leadership you're on. You do not know it all. We're all learning. We're all growing, and we can learn from one another. And, yeah, God surrounds us then with wise.
[00:14:44] Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. And it was definitely training ground for.
[00:14:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Because even when she becomes queen, the scripture says that she continues to follow the wisdom of Mordecai. So even when she got the position, that leadership position, she didn't know, clap her hands and say, okay, mordecai, enough now. Like, I'm now queen, you listen to me. You do what I say. She continued to lean and have an ear to hear his wisdom throughout all of her journey.
[00:15:17] Speaker B: She did, yeah, absolutely. That humility, that wasn't like, I'm a lowly worm. It was more humility of, yeah, I've got this position now and I need to steward it. Well, yes, that's leadership as well. It's not about titles and it's not about, it's actually about like we're talking the laying down the needs for the sake of others. And she mean, she even says in, says she didn't ask for anything special when she was going to see the king. She took only what Hagai suggested and he knew what was.
[00:15:58] Speaker A: That'S right. That's right. And I love that. Like, just seeing how she just, in wisdom doesn't rush know, she just leans back and goes, okay, what should I do here? What's the next right thing for me to do?
And he advises her and she listens to that and takes that on.
Absolutely.
[00:16:22] Speaker B: And if you're listening to this and you're going, I need to take the next right step, I think sometimes we can be frozen and go, what is the right step? But really, if you know you're in the will of God and you're just keeping 1ft in front of the other, you talk about faith steps and it's just doing one step at a time because we would get overwhelmed if God said, well, actually, I've got all this for you, and you've got to build your character and work into all this. And this is how you're going to become a leader. And you're know, if you knew all that, you wouldn't take the.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: That'S right. That's right. And everything was being used for her shaping and preparation and forming of a character and all of that. And we just see Esther as a woman who was just moldable. She just kept moving forward because there were uncertain times for her. She had no idea that when she did go stand before the king, if she would at all win favor with him, she just had to keep doing whatever the next right thing was.
And when her opportunity came, just to be confident in that, she's done everything she could to prepare. She's leaned in, she sought wisdom, and she just moves forward in that trusting however it plays out.
[00:17:50] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:17:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:51] Speaker B: Because all the characters in the story, they count on the king's favor.
[00:17:57] Speaker A: They do.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: Because you've got the baddie who's, who's not wanting Mordecai. He doesn't like him. He wants to get rid of him. And that's how this all starts, and you've got the eunuchs who are underneath the king. You've got Esther, you've got Mordecai, even Vashti. They were all under the king's favor.
[00:18:21] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:18:22] Speaker B: And whether he said yes or no, because he had the power to get rid of them or put them to really, when you break down the story and go, how much power kings had, then it was so brave for Esther to go and present herself to the king. And if he doesn't put out that golden scepter, she's done for. And her know, not just, you know, but we're leaping ahead of the story because she goes to Mordecai and she's know, what do I do? And he does that famous know.
Maybe you've been here for such a time as right. But he even says to know, and he's quite candid with are don't think that you're safe just because you're a queen.
[00:19:14] Speaker A: Yes, that's right. And that just is a glimpse into their relationship that he didn't hold back either, just because now she'd come into the status of the queen and that leadership role, he was still able to be her wise voice when everything was happening. And now all this upheaval had happened and there was so much uncertainty. It said people were unsettled by the news of this plot and this plan. And here he comes sending these messages to Esther. And I loved her first response where she's like, just telling Mordecai, don't you know that the king hasn't called for me? And if I approach without being called, basically I could.
And, and then he responds, of course, back with that famous passage of scripture. And I chuckled to myself because I'm like, she's like, hey, Mordecai, don't push this on me.
That's a lot of pressure. Right now. I'm already in this unfamiliar place. Yes, I've been here a while, and I'm learning the ways and the customs and what I should do and shouldn't do, but this is still foreign to me. And now you're know, hey, this now is going to rest upon you going before the king on the behalf of all these people. That's a lot of pressure.
[00:20:39] Speaker B: It is, yeah. And the thing is, Ivana, is you touched on it before and you said, I'm not cut out to be a leader.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:48] Speaker B: And when you are being given the mantle as a leader and you say, yeah, you can have a leadership position, there's that part of you going, I don't know whether I'm ready for this, the stretching. And someone asked you to do something. I don't know. You count yourself out every time and go, I don't know whether I'm qualified to do this. And it's like God's going, I have chosen you. You are the person to do this job.
That famous line, Esther 414. But he says at the start, for if you remain silent at this time, everyone's going to perish in my own leadership, and probably in yours as well. Avan, you can talk into this. There's times in leadership when sometimes we've seen an injustice or seen something happen, and we remain silent, believing we're going to be okay. Yes, but really, what? Mordecai pushes back on Esther and says, no, you're in it too. Yeah, that's right.
A person's going to arise from another place and help these people, and that's where it comes in self preservation. And that spirit of fear kicks in. And you operate out of a leadership of fear rather than face then, yeah, absolutely.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: And you're right. I think we would always write ourselves off and say, we're not ready yet. We haven't learned enough or experienced enough or studied enough. But I have found that over the years, often you don't necessarily go searching out leadership roles or positions or opportunities.
It's thrust upon you. Sometimes it's just because you've been faithful in what you've been doing. And God now says, through circumstances, now's the time. Now's the time for you to find your voice or go and do that thing that you've been putting off or try a new thing or whatever it is, it can be anything. Leadership can has many faces and opportunities. And for Esther, it was, now is your time, Esther, you have got to rise and be that voice. For the ones that can't approach the king, that don't even have an opportunity to come anywhere near to plead their case.
I loved her first hesitation, because that's real inside of her. She's like, no way.
No, don't ask me to do this. I could die. This is costly. I didn't sign up for that. She's like, hey, I didn't fill in the code of conduct contract to say.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: Where did I sign up for?
[00:23:26] Speaker A: I know where. Where was know? And then it's know when he comes back with that beautiful declaration.
I was just like, she would have just, I believe God just opened her up and said, esther, that's right. You've been positioned for such a time as this, I knew this was going to play out in the life of the Jews. I knew that there was going to be an enemy that was going to rise to try to wipe them out again. And here we are. You're the voice, you're the girl that I've chosen for this time. And I just love that. I think she leaned into the writer of her story.
Maybe she had the glimpses of all the life that she had lived with the tragedy of the loss of her parents and then the beautiful heart of her cousin opening up his home and heart to her and raising her like a daughter and the wisdom that he spoke on her life. But then being taken away from that and thrust into this harem and thrust into this other unknown world that she wasn't familiar with, and then having to navigate what that looked like in uncertainty, but seeing how God continued to look after her and she did find favor in that place and in that room. And, yeah, I just think it was at that point that she's like, well, God, you're the writer of my story. I'm going to keep trusting you because she then comes back to Mordecai and says, all right, I want you to fast. I want all these ones to fast. And you know what? I don't just want you to do it. I'm going to fast, and my girls are going to fast as well. So she wasn't, like, putting something out to say, okay, you've all now got to do this. It was like, I'm in this as well. This is going to cost me, and I'm going to fast and believe as well. And then I'll do the brave. Then I will move forward in what? The unknown. Because it was still unknown as to whether she would have that gold scepter lifted to her as an acceptance to come forward and approach the king or not.
[00:25:26] Speaker B: Absolutely. And she set the tone, didn't she? Is it right for the people or right for me?
[00:25:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
And a leader does that. It gets to the point, what do they say? When push comes to shove, you've just got to go, okay. God, I'm trusting you. I can't see how this is all going to play out, but I do need to rise. I do need to stand up. I do need to be the leader you've called me to be at this time and help me. And I love that pause. I mean, she paused. She did a pause. She's like, I'm not rushing, though. We're going to pause. We're going to fast. We're going to call God into. You know, it's funny, I think I've heard people refer that Esther is one of the books that you don't actually hear a reference to God.
That's right. But the call to fast is absolutely an insight for us to go, yeah, they've gone, okay, pause. We need to go to the one. We need to deny our flesh. And we've got to really settle ourselves and go to God and yield and say, okay, we're going to deny the flesh. We want to lean in and hear what you've got to say in this situation. God. Yeah, we need to remember that.
[00:26:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's saying, this is serious. God, I need an, I've been, I have many leaders books, and I'm sure you do, too, of Anna, but I've read leaders eat last, which is Simon Sinek's book. It's not a christian book, but it's so good. And he just says in it, it talks about, because the leaders eat last is about marines in the corpse. The officers eat last, and they let all the other ranks eat first. And that's where the premise comes from. But he says in it, the true price of leadership is the willingness to place the needs of others above your own. Great leaders care about those. They are privileged to lead and understand that the true cost of the leadership privilege comes at the expense of self interest. Me becomes we.
[00:27:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:42] Speaker B: And it's that self interest and that self preservation that unfortunately, some leaders cling a lot onto. And it's like, well, it's right for me, but not right for the people.
And Esther just teaches us that.
And when you said she puts on her brave, she becomes brave, and it would not have been easy. And sometimes the decisions that you make, you think self interest will be so much sweeter, it will be so much easier.
But is that going to help the people?
[00:28:17] Speaker A: That's right.
Having a heart like that as a leader, to remember that there are people on the other side of our obedience, of our sacrifice, of us saying yes, of us rising up and understanding that it does cost us something, but it's so worth it.
It's a thing that gets you through when it's darkest of days and you just can't see ahead of you, or lots of things are happening out of your control, and you're just not sure, or there's a betrayal and you don't understand why, and you're grieving or things don't work, and you're like, what's going on? I've done all that I can do. Again, I just think the Holy Spirit is so beautiful in the way he brings comfort and strength. If we continue to look to him and we continue again to remember the why, the biggest why of everything that we're know, why are we doing it? And it is truly about loving God and loving people. And to love means sacrifice. To love it costs us.
It's not comfortable. Often leadership is not comfortable.
And if that's why people are coming into leadership, I'd say just don't do it for that reason, because it's not what it's made out to be in the sense not, it's not the instagram, it's not.
Esther won favour at times in her life, but she also had hand in hand tragedy and sacrifice and not being able to see clearly and having to make hard decisions in the midst of it all. And that is life and that is leadership. It's a whole mixed bag. But we must remember absolutely that there are people on that other side of us saying yes, and rising up and getting up again, they say, and doing it again and going forward, or being the one who shows up when nobody else is showing up, or being the one who's faithful, prayerful, I don't know how many times, because people need you to do that. I remember one time one person showed up to something that we had going on and they were like, I wasn't going to come, but I'm so glad that you guys were here. And not many people came, but I remember the impact that it had had on this particular person. And I was so grateful. I was like, that's what it's about.
We just keep showing up. We just keep laying your life down.
And I don't mean to make that out like it's a light, easy thing because it is not. There are tears and there's sacrifice and cost to it all, but it is worth.
[00:31:05] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:31:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:07] Speaker B: And that's the thing when you talk about, you just keep showing up.
The part with Mordecai when Haman saying, because Mordecai helped the king way back in the chronicles when he pulls it up and his story, but he never got any recognition for it, yet he still did the right thing and it didn't play out until way down the track.
[00:31:34] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:31:34] Speaker B: That the king said, oh, read this story to me. And he's like, mordecai, what? He helped stop me be assassinated. He foiled the plot and it sort of added to his character, yet he never got recognized for it, but he still did it. So if you want to be recognized continuously as a leader, yeah, it's great when you are recognized. But like you said, if that's the motive, if that's the why behind why you want to be a leader, then it's going to be even harder to walk that road.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: That's right. I mean, even in that story, when know went back with the report of what Mordecai had revealed, she made sure that he was noted and credited for that. In those writings, it was noted down that Mordecai was the one who revealed about the spies that were going to poison the king. And I love that Esther didn't claim that for herself. Even though she reported what Mordecai had said. She made sure that he got that credit in the writings, even though he wasn't awarded at the time or noted at the time. She made sure it got down in those chronicles as Mordecai had revealed who these enemies of the king were. And I was just like, that's another thing a leader does. They don't take credit for other people's triumphs and things that accomplishments. They make sure that they champion others. And they say, hey, that was so and so that did that. Isn't that great to see that when it all comes together and those perpetrators are captured and everything's settled, that the glory doesn't come to us. We absolutely love it when it goes to the other know where we can champion them and say, well done. You've done really well in that.
[00:33:32] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
And in the know, we're talking about being prepared to take a know. Heyman was on the total opposite side because he was a leader, too. He was on the opposite side. And here they're all being prepared. So Mordecai was being prepared, Esther was being prepared, and Haman was then being prepared. I mean, obviously being prepared to go the gallows.
He was like, what?
But how? His stance of, oh, I'm being invited to the king and the queen, and then it's just a secluded little banquet, and they're doing it for me because I'm so wonderful and look how great I am.
He really was showing his heart.
[00:34:16] Speaker A: He was.
[00:34:18] Speaker B: And his loathing for Mordecai and what he would, the lengths he would go to, and even his wife, he goes back to his family and he tells them all, I'm going to be invited. And she's like, oh, you make sure you do this and you do this.
And I'm like, wow. Even just that in itself, that's right.
Is something to pull apart and have a look.
Say Heyman never laid his own needs down for the sake of.
[00:34:45] Speaker A: No, no, it wasn't even in his vocabulary. It was just, how can I keep building my name and my status and that I could be seen and noted and. Yeah, that's what I mean. The characters within this story we can learn the good from and the not so know. And it really did show his heart, how it was all about him and anyone that seemed to come up against him even in the slightest. It wasn't just that he wanted to take Mordecai out. It went beyond that, where he's like, right, he's a jew, we're going to take all of the jewish race out. And I'm like, that is so extreme, what hatred he had.
Yeah. And how it just made him totally lose any sense of wisdom or focus. And he was just driven by it, wasn't he?
[00:35:38] Speaker B: It was me all the time, never a we.
[00:35:41] Speaker A: No, absolutely.
[00:35:44] Speaker B: And then I just love how queen Esther just turns it all around and even how the king goes, how would you honor someone who did this for you? And he's thinking it's him all along. And he's like, oh, well, I do this and this and this, and he's like, well, go and get Mordecai because that's what's going to happen. You can imagine Haman's face is know what has just happened. I've just set my enemy up to be honored and all that, and it just everything.
And if you've got a me mentality with leadership, eventually it's just going to crash on your head.
You're not going to have that longevity and that favor and all that. And, yeah, we make mistakes.
Even in my own leadership, I mean, years ago you gave me some advice, I didn't listen.
Let's be honest, I didn't listen. Ended up writing a book, wounded on the run, and the rest is history.
But through the trials and the valleys and the wrestling and the character building and actually learning. Price of leadership, paying the price, learning to count the cost.
[00:37:10] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:37:11] Speaker B: And now I'm a little bit more mature in my leadership.
I totally come to you and go, hey, I need some wise counsel here. I'm going to listen this time.
In leadership, we do do the doozies and go, well, I didn't listen, but all this happened, but you can totally learn from it, too. But I think if you're listening and you have some really great people around, you listen to them and listen to their wise counsel and sort of glean into it. It's not necessarily saying. What you're saying is that's what I've got to do.
But if we shut our mind off it, we can go through trials that we probably didn't need to.
[00:38:03] Speaker A: That's right.
It's true. Hey, as long as we're growing and learning, I love it that God never gives up on us.
I'm so grateful for that. But I mean, even if looking at Haman's life and he was so desperate, it was all about him and all of that. But even at the end there, when his wife sort of says to him, if you're really going to go up against this Mordecai, it's like, it's not going to work out for you. So he's a woman sharing some wisdom, going, Haman, no, this isn't going to work out. This is obviously things are turning around and it's not looking good and it's not going to work out for you. And then all of a sudden it says, the attendants came to take know off to the thinking, I wonder, he wouldn't even at that point have gone, this is a terrible idea. This is not good. I've got to know. Change what I say before the king and the queen. Almost like, hey, you know how I had that thing against Mordecai and the jews? I think we should just drop that. Yes, but no, let's take those gallows.
[00:39:13] Speaker B: Down one plank at a time.
[00:39:16] Speaker A: Still obviously relentless he was, yes. And I'm like, I wonder what would have happened if maybe he entered that room and that banquet with a whole different perspective and thought, no, I've gone astray way too far. Yeah, I've got to pull it around. I've got to turn this around.
But he didn't.
[00:39:40] Speaker B: Well, that's the thing with me, leadership in, isn't it? It's a prize thing. You're like, well, I can't back there now because I'm going to end up with egg on my face. And it's that whole self interest again coming.
I'm going to look bad now.
[00:39:54] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, that's right.
Looking into Haman's life, I was like, okay, well, where in my life am I not celebrating people in my world that maybe I disagree with? Or I have had a clash of whatever.
Do I celebrate them or am I like Haman? When Mordecai got on the horse and the ring and the robe and all the rest and people cheering him, am I walking around? I can just picture Haman's face of horror.
[00:40:30] Speaker B: Well, it does say Haman was mortified in scripture. I'm like, yeah, but I mean, where are we?
[00:40:38] Speaker A: Like know, because sometimes we can try to look for ourselves in Esther or in Mordecai or the good guys. Yeah, we've got to look. We've got to look to see. Is there a bit of Haman in know and where is it? And God help know. Show me if there is any of that because I don't want ever it to be that I'm driven out of ego or status or pulling others down. All of that. I don't want any of that in me. That's not Jesus. That's not who we're loving and wanting to be like in anything that we do.
Yeah. So I think know, let's not read past him or judge him too quickly. Let's go.
What part of Haman's in me?
[00:41:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's like bookending because it finishes with Haman, but it starts with Queen Vashti, you know what I mean? So those two characters, you can totally, like you said, dismiss them, but really, can we learn from them too?
[00:41:43] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a lot we can learn from.
[00:41:48] Speaker B: So as we wrap up, because I could talk to you forever.
We could.
But it's that whole, what is God preparing? You mean a w tozer? I'll do a quote again from his book the Crucified Life. It says the only christians you want to listen to are the ones who give you more of a hunger for God. And that is you of Anna.
When you spend life, do life with you, you give someone a hunger for God. And because you hunger for of when we wrap up this whole being prepared to take a stand and laying your needs down for others and what is it God is preparing us for? And it's maybe not as big as what Esther's doing, but it could be something that's so important in God's eyes.
What are your thoughts on? Just the whole story in itself and that whole laying your own self interest down and it's a we instead of a me. What is your thoughts?
[00:43:01] Speaker A: You're very kind with your words towards me, by the way. That's really beautiful. And thank just Esther just reminds me again that God is faithful in all of our stories and he's created us for purpose and a good work. And it doesn't always look good, though, when we're journeying out our stories, but just continue to lean in and trust him. Trust the writer of your story that he doesn't make mistakes. And that even though we're in this now and not yet in the in between of having the fulfillment of all that Jesus completed for us, that he is right here with us, he was right there with Esther and Mordecai and all of them at that time and orchestrating their lives, and I always say, like, bumping them a little bit to the left or the right, they just didn't know that it was the hand of God. And in our lives, it's the same.
We've had things happen in our journeys that haven't been so great, and sometimes we don't understand why. But keep asking the Lord to continue to show you what he's forming and shaping within you. And our prayer is always that more of Jesus and less of us, that we'd look more and more like him, we'd begin to think like him and live out our lives like him. And that's a high call for all of us. We're all called for great things in God. I heard someone say the other day, if you've got a pulse, you've got a purpose.
And I loved that because I'm like, absolutely.
And not one of us is living a greater story than another. It's your story and the part that God's got you to play the chapter out of the larger story that he's asked you to play and live out. Let's do it well, and let's do it seeking God's wisdom humbly before him, not thinking that we need to know it all before we can step out in it. We've got to just know and get to love more and more our guide and the writer of that story. Because when we do, when those big faith moments come, it's easier for you to hold his hand and walk across than to try to jump across on your own. So keep his hand in yours and just keep leaning in and asking him, show me, Lord. You know who I am. You see me inside out. You know my weaknesses, you know how you form me, but just help me in this time. And so whatever area of life you find yourself in, season of life, God is good. Just know that he will use whatever it is that's in your hand to be a blessing for the kingdom. And what we do in our lives matters doesn't just impact ourselves, it impacts those around us. And so big or small, doesn't matter. Just trust God. Be faithful in that. And let's just see, hey, how our stories unfold.
[00:46:05] Speaker B: Love it.
Well, thank you so much, my friend. The nuggets of wisdom is you can make a gold ring out of it in the past 40 od minutes. So yeah, it's been beautiful to talk to you. Thank you so much for joining me in the spacious room. I love you. I love doing life with you. And yeah, I just pray that the listeners listening that something has just clicked and gone. Yep, I'm going to get into Esther, I'm going to read the story and I am going to learn to prepare to take a stand and lay my needs down just to help. Not always necessarily the masses, but just help someone else.
So thank you, my friend, thank you and thanks for listening. And I will catch you all next time on the Leaders Talk spacious room podcast.
[00:47:04] Speaker A: Bye.
[00:47:05] Speaker B: Thanks for listening. To catch all the ladies from me, you can subscribe to my website, thebigvoiceonline.com or follow me on Instagram. Wendy J. Parkofriter see you soon.
