Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] You experiencing a small, contained faith, tired of settling for less? Well, this podcast is going to help you live out your faith in a spacious room because you were made for bigger things.
[00:00:36] Well, hello. Hello and welcome to this week's leaders talk Spacious room podcast. And today I have myself, you have myself, no special guests this week because we're going to be talking about the narrative of an antihero, running away from responsibility. And I was thinking about the leaders that I know and I thought, the one leader that has ran away from responsibility is me. Yes, the finger pointed back on myself.
[00:01:10] So I thought, regular listeners, you will get to know me a whole lot better in the next half an hour as I candidly talk about running away from responsibility and how my narrative of the antihero played out and what lessons I've actually learned along the way. And I really hope that this episode is going to help some of you leaders who are struggling with probably the weight of responsibility, of leadership or running teams or doing church life, and you just want to sit in a dark place, have a little pity party and just go, God, I can't do leadership anymore. Well, yeah, that was me.
[00:02:04] And I have learnt that it's in the surrender and it's in that dark place where you really get a change of heart and you really wrestle with God and he just brings you through and you do what he's called you to do. He empowers and equips you.
[00:02:24] So I'm going to talk about, of course, the most famous anti hero in the Bible is of course, Jonah. And we all know the story of Jonah, how he was called to go and speak to Nineveh and he refused and he ended up going the other way. And he had good reason to as well, because the Assyrians were pretty hard on Israel and Jonah just loathes them, really.
[00:03:00] And you can see why Jonah, when you read the story, why is unhappy with God and why he questioned God to say, assyrians, you want them all saved? Are you serious? Do you know what they've done to know? Because these Assyrians, they were aggressive in nature. They built this empire by bullying and conquering other nations. So when God has the audacity to say to Jonah to go down to Nineveh and preach a message of repentance to them, he was having none of it. He was like, I am going to get on a ship and I'm going to be going the other way. So we're going to pick up the story in chapter one, verse one. And I just want to set the scene of Jonah.
[00:03:54] And I'm reading from the voice translation because I just love this translation. If you follow my blogs or my writing or have read my books, then the voice translation just, it's got that narrative form that I just love, and it really speaks to the depths of my soul. So this is why I like this translation. And it says, jonah, chapter one, verse one. One day, the word of the eternal one came to the prophet Jonah. Get up and go. Now, you got to remember that. Get up and go. That's what God's saying to Jonah, to that powerful and notorious city of Nineveh. Call out my message against it, because the wickedness of its people have come to my attention. In hearing those instructions, Jonah got up and ran towards Tashish from the eternal's presence. He went totally the other way. He went down to the point at Jopa and found a ship born for tashish. He climbed aboard, paid the fare, and made himself comfortable in the hold of the ship. Oh, my gosh.
[00:05:07] Paid the fare, made himself comfortable in the hold of the ship. He was saying, no, I'm going to get myself comfortable going to Nineveh, that notorious city, to tell them to all repent and get saved. Way too uncomfortable. I'm going to be paying the fare, climb aboard the ship that's going in the opposite direction. I'm going to get myself comfortable, maybe have a little nap, and I'm going in the other direction.
[00:05:38] But of course, God had other ideas. And it says in verse four of chapter one, not to be deterred, don't just love God.
[00:05:50] He never gets deterred by our stubbornness. The eternal one threw an intense wind at the sea. The violence of the storm put Jonah's ship in jeopardy of breaking apart. The sailors panicked. They started running back and forth, throwing cargo overboard to lighten the boat. Every man, out of desperation, cried to his own deity.
[00:06:18] Eventually, a sailor found Jonah down in the hold of the ship, where he had laid down and fallen into a deep slumber. When the captain heard, he went down and woke Jonah up. How can you sleep so deeply? Get up. There it is again. Get up and call out to your deity. Maybe your deity will see what is happening and save us from this catastrophe.
[00:06:43] Well, as the story goes, Jonah suddenly realizes he wakes up to himself, not just in the natural, but in the spiritual, and goes, and they're like, why is this storm happening? I mean, these are know, experienced sailors, and they're thinking, what is happening? What have we? You know, they're throwing out cargo. They're trying to manage the ship.
[00:07:09] And in the end, Jonah's like, it's me, it's me. Throw me out and it'll all be calm. And they're like, no, we can't do that. We just chuck everything out. Don't you find that in leadership? It's like God's going, this is the problem. You are the problem.
[00:07:26] He's pretty blunt sometimes, God, when you're not listening, when you go in the hold of the ship and you want to go sleep and you're just like, I'm done. I'm not going to do what you asked me to do, God. And he's like, right, I'm going to send a storm. I'm going to send some chaos. I'm going to get it going, and you're going to wake up from your slumber and everyone around you, like the sailors, let's get rid of this and this and throw out cargo and do this and do this. And nothing seems to be stopping that chaos and stopping that storm. And then you suddenly realize, well, perhaps it's me. It's me who needs to leave the ship, who needs to get out of a situation.
[00:08:11] So it's calm and everyone's like, no, it's not you. It's everything else. But sometimes in leadership, God has to be pretty blunt to really do a really good work in us.
[00:08:30] I know myself, I've thought maybe I need to change my ways or I need to do what God asked me to do. But you make excuses and excuses and you keep running in the other direction. And you know what? Running in the other direction is not always from what you've done. Yeah, God's going to do a work in you, but sometimes it's what's been done to you. I mean, my book, wounded and on the run, is total testament to wounding and hardship and disappointment and all that.
[00:09:16] And yet God says, I'm still calling you. I'm still calling you. And you can get a bit like Jonah and think about the other people that you need to go and see and they're less deserving and you think they're not worthy and you think they're never going to repent.
[00:09:35] And so you sit in a ship that's going to Shattashi and you go, I can't do it. I can't do it, God. And then the chaos starts and he's like, you need to listen, you need to do this. And that's the wrestle, isn't it? And you're like, but I've been wounded. I've been disappointed. I've been hurt by other people and I've done things that are not great either.
[00:10:02] And you sort of question God, and you go, why have you called me to leadership? Why me?
[00:10:09] It's just like, I don't make mistakes. I don't make mistakes. I have called you, I have chosen you. I know it's hard, I know it's tough, but you're going to do what I've asked and it's going to change you.
[00:10:28] We can be going along quite nicely in our faith, and then suddenly God asks you to do something and you're not keen on it. I know, and I've been in many situations like that, and I'm sure you have as a leader, too.
[00:10:47] You get fear and it makes you want to run away.
[00:10:52] And then you think all about the wounding, disappointment. You think, I don't want to go through that again. I don't want to put myself through that again. God, what are you doing to me? And we want to change and we want to see the change and we want to be the change, but we resist God because he's asking us to do something that is our calling on our lives, just like Jonah. And you're like, that's not what I've signed up for.
[00:11:21] My thought of leadership and how it's going to roll was not what you've asked me to do. God. And that can be really tough. That's such a growth in leadership that you just think, I'm not sure whether I can.
[00:11:42] You know, John C. Maxwell, the great leader, he says this. He says, some people are open to change as long as it doesn't inconvenience them or cost them anything.
[00:11:52] And it's so true. Isn't know if it's going to inconvenience us. Is it going to cost us something just like Jonah? You're like, no, that's too high a price to pay. I don't want to do that. I'm going to hide in a ship. I'm going to fall asleep. But the chaos ensues.
[00:12:12] It keeps going, and he stretches and he shapes us in ways that we never thought we would be able to cope with. And of course, what happens with Jonah is they do throw him out in the, you know, throwing him out the sea. He still has a calling on his life. The sailors think he's going to die. But whether it's metaphor, theologians have not. Whether it's a dream that Jonah had or whether it is a real whale or whether it's a metaphor for something they can't quite determine what it is, but the point of the story is that Jonah is questioning why the Assyrians are going to get God's repentance. It's like he was going to be in the judgment seat and say, well, I'm worthy of being. Having mercy and to be saved. But these Assyrians who have oppressed Israel are not worthy. And God's like, no, you're not, judge. I decide who's going to be saved. And he's like, there's thousands of people who I want you to go and preach the message to. And that's the whole thing with Jonah in the whale, Jonah in the.
[00:13:49] It's. It's not the ship, it's not the throwing overboard that changes him. It's when he's in the whale.
[00:13:56] And that's the he. When he's sitting in that belly of the whale, hoping that it all goes away, he's starting to get a change of heart.
[00:14:12] And in my own story, God's asked me to step up, and he's probably asked you too, to step up and to help people, to help them live out a better story. And that was in my writing, to be an author of books. And I got to say, I ran away from it a little bit. And it was always there. Everything that I did, whatever job I took or whatever I did, the writing always came back. And it's like. God's like, you need to do this. You need to be obedient and you need to do it. And I know it's a different situation to Jonah, but I'm sure you're thinking as you're listening to this, what situation or what calling or what has God put on my heart that I'm really resisting and going, I can't do it, I can't do it.
[00:15:11] And he works through it. And for myself, I've resisted many times for the changing that's got to occur in me so I can live out my calling. And it's. It's those internal ones, like, you know, a fearful mindset, trusting God completely, knowing that he's my provider and he's my source. And over the past few years, I've certainly learnt that big time that he is my provider and my source.
[00:15:43] And yeah, it was a huge inconvenience.
[00:15:47] Huge.
[00:15:50] And it cost me something. And there's days where I sat in that whale of my old life and it was far more comforting to sit in that and not trust God and not step out into the God. You know, he kept reminding me that he's like, you've got a responsibility, Wendy.
[00:16:11] You've got a calling on your life.
[00:16:13] You are destined. You are called. I have chosen you. You need to do what I've asked you to do.
[00:16:21] You need to write books.
[00:16:25] And so I did.
[00:16:31] And it's only because I actually surrendered. And God's going, there's souls out there that need to be helped, that need to be. Know my grace and know my love. And I had to really change my thinking. I had to trust God with my life, just like Jonah did.
[00:16:52] And he's going to send storms, and he sent a whale.
[00:16:59] But he kept saying to me, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay. Just like Jonah.
[00:17:08] Finally he came out of the way and obviously he went to Nineveh. And before that, Jonah reveals a prayer. Reveals a prayer, a change of heart. And you've got to listen to this. This is just so good.
[00:17:30] This is Jonah's prayer, right in the chaos, in the moment of his deepest, darkest moment, before he obviously gets spat out by the whale, it says with desperate cries, maybe you can identify this right at this moment in your leadership.
[00:17:54] With desperate cries, I beckoned the eternal to hear, and he answered me from the belly, the place of death. I cried out to you, and you have responded to my voice. You threw me into the watery depths and cast me into the middle of the chaotic seas. The waters closed in around me. Your waves broke over me. Your surf swelled as I sank into the depths. But then I said to you, I have been driven out from before your very eyes. Still, I know I will gaze again on your holy temple.
[00:18:28] The waters swallowed me. The deep abyss was covering over me. Seaweeds were wrapped around my head, trapping me as I sank down to where the mountains are rooted to the earth. I went down to the place where death's gate would lock me in forever.
[00:18:44] If you're feeling like that at the moment, honestly, I totally get where you are because that's how it can feel.
[00:18:52] But then the next part of his prayer, it's like he's in the ashes, he's in the depths of despair. But then he starts to rise up. And that's what God does. He takes you to the end of yourself till you just can't. You're like, that's it. I'm done. And he's like, okay, now we're going to rise. And it says, yet you lifted me up from the pit. Eternal one, you are my God. Only as my life was fading away did I remember the eternal to your sacred dwelling your holy temple. My cries did rise to you. Those who worship worthless idols turn their backs on God and renounce their loyal love. But I will sing to you and sacrifice to you with a voice filled with thanksgiving. Whatever I promised, I will certainly pay it, because deliverance is from the eternal alone.
[00:19:49] And in Mark Sayer's book, facing Lilith, then leadership, influence and creating in a cultural storm. I highly recommend this book. It's so good.
[00:20:02] He talks about, he goes through the story of Jonah, but he says this. He says, sacrificial love wrapped up in grace is what saves the power with which God triumphs over the abyss. Sin, chaos and death is a power made perfect in weakness. And I really think Jonah, in his weakness of saying, I'm not going to do what you've called me to do, God, because I don't think then people are deserving. It was such a weakness to him, and I think his vulnerability of really being honest. And I think as leaders, we need to really get honest with ourselves, right? We really need to go.
[00:20:51] Okay, what is it that is stopping me from going into my calling? What am I hooked onto? I mean, like the whale, they get hooked onto things.
[00:21:06] And as leaders, we can get hooked onto comfort, onto, you know, it says in verse one, verse three, what I read out, and he went down to the port of Joppa and found a ship bound for tarshish. He climbed aboard, paid the fare, made himself comfortable in the hold of the ship. And that's what we do, isn't it, as leaders? We get comfortable in the ship before the whale moment, and we're never going to get off the ship. We got to be turfed out, sometimes out the ship, out of our comfort zone. And you're like, well, I've paid the fare. I've paid my money to be on this comfortable ship, but believe me, God's sending a storm. And like me, he woke me up to my calling.
[00:22:02] So we can really get hooked on comfort as a leader, and we've got to really question ourselves of why we want to be a leader in the first place. And another book, leadership book, that I've got is the motive. And if you've never read it, it's a leadership fable, and it's by Sony, I can't even say his name, patrick Lenocini. And it's such a fantastic book.
[00:22:35] The motive why so many leaders abdicate their most important responsibilities. And he just says this in the introduction, and I thought, yeah, this is so true.
[00:22:50] The primary motive for most young people and too many older ones is the rewards that leadership brings with it. Things like notoriety, status and power. But people who are motivated by these things won't embrace the demands of leadership when they see little or no connection between doing their duties and receiving those rewards. They'll pick and choose how they spend their time and energy based on what they are going to get, rather than what they need to give to the people they're supposed to be leading. This is as dangerous as it is common. And I think sometimes we can really think what I'm going to get rather than what I'm going to give. We can become the jonah. He wasn't thinking what he's going to give to those know, give the gift of salvation, really to preach to them and say, this is a free gift, you are worthy to have it. He was thinking about what he was going to get.
[00:23:55] And we can fall into that trap as leaders, and we've really got to bring back the why of why we've been called to leadership. Is it what we're going to give to other people or is it what we're going to get? And it's, you know, and we can get really hooked on that comfort, but also we can actually get hooked on distraction because before Jonah went into the whale and the sailors, they're like freaking out and panicking because of this chaotic storm. And it know, the sailors panicked. They started running back and forth, throwing cargo overboard to lighten the boat. Every man out of desperation, cried to his own deity and they got distracted. And you'll find that when you're distracted, I mean, the enemy is so good, isn't he, at distracting us so quickly, focusing on things that really don't matter, instead of looking at the things that really do matter.
[00:25:02] And he can get us so busy in leadership about the things that really are quite trivial, rather than focusing and concentrating on things that actually make a difference.
[00:25:16] And that's what you need to focus on.
[00:25:19] And we can keep running back and forth, looking at the cargo, throwing it overboard, and we actually acknowledge that it's us as leaders that need to jump ship and we're going to end up going in that belly of the whale. But that's where the change, that's where the transformation happens, just like Jonah. And yeah, you jump from the chaos and you go into the belly of the whale. And I know, I've been there myself, and you're thinking, oh my gosh, can it get any worse? I mean, seriously, God, can it get any worse?
[00:25:54] But you know what? The ship that you've jumped from is actually going in the wrong direction. That's going to tarshish and you don't want to go there. You need to go to Nineveh and the whale, even though it's dark and it's smelly and it's horrible and it's the change and transformation that you need.
[00:26:17] It's pointing you in the right direction. And that's where leaders need to be hooked on surrender.
[00:26:25] Because it says in Jonah two two, it says from the belly, the place of death. I cried out to you and you have responded to my voice. You know, it's that obedience that comes from the dark belly of the whale. Because, you know, like myself, I just got to a point. I want God. I'm just sick and tired of running.
[00:26:47] I'm tired of running from my wounds, from my disappointment, from everything that has happened to me. I'm just going to stop running and I'm going to let you heal me. I'm going to let you make me whole, and I'm going to allow you to make me a better leader. I'm still learning, but trust me, I haven't got it all together.
[00:27:12] But I look back on my journey of being from a chaos of the ship and the storm into the whale and back out and I think, wow, God, you have done a work in me that is so deep and so life changing that I see things different now.
[00:27:37] I see things that I think, you know what? That's not going to distract me. I'm not going to get hooked on the distraction. I'm not going to get hooked on being comfortable. I'm just going to get hooked on surrendering and I'm going to stop running away and I'm going to be like Jonah and I'm going to. I surrender.
[00:27:55] And God gives you the strength and the courage to go and do what you've called to do. He really does.
[00:28:07] And another book that is amazing, too, is Andy Stanley's deep and wide creating churches on church. People love to attend. And I think when I talk about my change of heart and as a leader, because I've been a leader in church for over 20 years and yeah, things have happened, but I think for me, I have to be careful. Like Jonah's sort of attitude, know those people are not deserving.
[00:28:53] And I'm not going to go to the Assyrians. I'm not going to go to Nineveh. And we can become like this christian only culture and we can sort of get in this cozy little huddle and click and go. I'm not going to go outside. I'm just happy to lead the people inside the church, which we are called to do, but we've always got to have that church with no wall sort of mindset. And Andy Stanley says, he says this about leadership. It's a shame. Well, churches in general, not just leaders, but leaders, do set the culture of a church. And it says, it's a shame that so many churches are married to it designed by christians for christians only culture, a culture in which they talk about the great commission, sing songs about the great commission, but refuse to recognize their churches, reorganize their churches around the great commission. They are often the same churches where members talk about grace, sing about how amazing it is, but create graceless cultures where only those who play by the rules feel welcome.
[00:30:08] And I think if there's one thing we can learn about Jonah, is that in Jonah's mindset, the Assyrians were not playing by the rules. And he was like, they don't deserve to be saved. But God, in his grace and his mercy is like, I came for all. I came for all. And it doesn't matter how far you are removed, I'm going to send someone to help you, help people see, recognize me.
[00:30:43] And I think as leaders, we really need to sort of keep looking outside and looking past the four walls of our churches and going, yeah, it's about bringing the unchurched in and just loving on them. Loving on them regardless what they've done or where they're from, and just loving them. And I know many of you who listen to this. It totally got that heart, too. It's like, I'm preaching to the choir.
[00:31:24] I hope and pray that you have that mindset and that attitude, that right attitude. It's really important. And sometimes we got to go through the chaos.
[00:31:37] But that's where God changes chaos into peace. And he's totally done that in my life, too.
[00:31:45] Sometimes I've been in such chaos in my own self that God's had to do a really good work in me and just, I've got to yield to his will. I think that's what we need to learn as leaders, is just to yield to what God has called us to do, because that's what Jonah did. He yielded to the eternal's command and headed on the road to nineveh. He finally did think, you know, we can go to all the christian conferences we like and buy all these christian books and make ourselves feel good.
[00:32:29] And it is good because we seek out our purpose and our calling, and we get clarification sometimes from conferences and from christian books. I'm not knocking them at all. They definitely have their place. They're great, and they bring clarity and definition to what God is asking you to do. But, you know, there comes a moment when God asks us to change our attitude about something which makes us run just like Jonah, in the other direction.
[00:33:00] And God will let us get swallowed up by many whales until we yield, until we surrender to his will, because we're not part of our story. We're part of his story. He is the one who calls us, and we just have to be obedient and say, okay, God.
[00:33:22] And Charles swindle talks about how having the right attitude is really important. And this is what he says, and I just love this, and I'm going to finish on this.
[00:33:34] He says, the longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life.
[00:33:42] Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness, or skill. It will make or break a company, a church, or a home. The remarkable thing is that we have a choice every day to regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change our past, nor can we change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We also cannot change the inevitable. The only thing that we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. And isn't that just so good? And as leaders, I just pray, if you're listening now, and I'm praying to myself about this, too, just keep your attitude in check. Keep your attitude in check. If you're fast asleep in the hold of the ship and the chaos is going around you, maybe God's saying it's time to wake up.
[00:35:09] If you're in the belly of the whale at the moment and it's dark and you just know you got to change something. You just know that you got to do a deep. God's got to do a deep work in you to go and do what you've been called to do, then allow him to just help you in that transformation. And he does it so lovingly. He really does. He is a good, good father, and he really does a good work in you. And it may take a long time. I mean, it's taken me a lot of years, and like I said, I still haven't got it all together. I still fail on things and still have attitudes about things, but I've got better I've got better.
[00:35:53] And I just think, I'm not one to judge all what I've been through. I am no person to point the finger and someone else's flaws, I probably had other flaws, and other people were graceful to me. And so you got to sort of mirror it to yourself. But I just pray that if there's one thing you take out of this podcast today about the narrative, the antihero, is that it's about our attitude. And if your attitude is stubbornness and resentfulness and bitterness and you're just sitting in that belly of the whale, then God's like, I want to use you. I want to not use you. I want you to step into your calling. Because God doesn't use people. He molds and shakes people.
[00:37:01] But we've got to change our attitude. But if you soften, if you start to get that attitude of softness, of grace, of love, of kindness, and actually think, wait a minute, I'm not deserving either of God's grace and love, so why should I judge other people that they are not deserving of it either?
[00:37:29] And as leaders, we really can overcome these things and keep coming back and checking our attitude because it can be like a daily thing. And sometimes, some days you're just great with your attitude, other days you've not had such a great day.
[00:37:50] But yeah, I think the whole narrative of Jonah was he had to really change his heart and his attitude. So I pray that over myself, and I pray over you, too, that we will keep our attitude in check. Keep that soft heart, keep just going back to the why of why we've been called as leaders. It's not for the prominence, it's not for the title of position.
[00:38:20] It's not for all the entitlements that we get. It's because we want to be servant leaders. We want to come back and go, we're just here like Jesus washes the disciples feet. That's what we're here for. We're here to serve.
[00:38:43] I just pray that and hear my heart on this because I've been through it, too. And like I said, I'm still learning.
[00:38:55] But you can really learn a lot from Jonah, and I highly recommend reading. It's only a short story, but it's really rich in getting your attitude right and getting it back in line with God's will and purpose, because that's what we're about, right?
[00:39:17] We're here to lead others to God's heart.
[00:39:21] So I really hope you've enjoyed this podcast.
[00:39:26] I pray that you've learned a lot about me, and next time, we've got another guest coming on, so I'm really looking forward to it. So I just want to say thanks for listening again. I hope you get a lot out of these leadership talks and I will catch you next time.
[00:39:49] Thanks for listening. To catch all the ladies from me, you can subscribe to my website, thebigvoiceonline.com, or follow me on Instagram. Wendy J. Parkov writer see you soon.
[00:40:05] Close.
