Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Do you want to experience the room? My name is Wendy Parker, and I'm extending an invitation to you, dear friend, to open the door to my podcast. So come inside where it's warm, take off your coat, get comfortable, and together we will discover the spacious room.
Hey there, and welcome to this week's Spacious Room. And today I am talking to Kyron Johnson in my Wounded and on the run series, how your worst pain can lead you into your greatest calling. And I've invited Kyron on the show, and he's known as the generosity guy, and he is the state manager in Western Australia and South Australia for Opportunity International Australia. And. And this is an organization that is ending poverty one family and one community at a time through the power of a small loan. And with a background of banking, radio, Bible college, and fundraising, Kyron is a father of four children and is motivated by inspiring people to discover their purpose and generosity to make our world a better place.
Hello, Kyron, and welcome to the Spacious Room.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: Hey, Wendy, thank you for having me in the spacious room. This is lovely.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: That's. No. No worries at all. So, first of all, we're gonna. The audience is just gonna get to know you a little bit, so I'm just gonna give you some little questions. So I like to know if any. If the person I'm talking to is a dog or a cat person. So which one are you?
[00:01:45] Speaker B: So recently I was. Up until recently, I was neither.
But like every other family during the pandemic, we've got a pet. And so now by default, I am a dog person.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: Yay.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: Which is exciting. But, like, for me, I. I confessed to my wife the other night, I was putting the dog out, and I said to my wife, when I came back to bed, I went, I just told the dog that I loved him.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: Oh.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: And she's like, oh, really? I said, yeah. Because I Normally, when I put my kids to bed, I like, I'll say to them, you know, good night, mate, or, good night, my little girl. Have a good sleep. I'll see you in the morning. I love you. And I accidentally did that to the dog, so I don't know what that means, whether I've just transitioned into a real dog person or whether it was just a sip of the tongue.
[00:02:27] Speaker A: Yes. It. Just your dog's family now. That's it.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:02:31] Speaker A: You've got to put them in the will and everything. It's.
[00:02:34] Speaker B: That's right. That's a serious state of affairs.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: It's so good.
So are you a dinner or a dessert person?
[00:02:45] Speaker B: I think I'm a dinner person. I do like desserts, but just from a health perspective.
Yeah. Dinner is the main thing.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: Definitely. You're not a. Forget dinner. It's dessert first.
[00:02:56] Speaker B: No, not.
Not anymore.
[00:03:00] Speaker A: Not anymore.
Since you've gone, all them clothes have got to go down. Lifeline. They don't fit me anymore.
So are you now?
I am more of a Marvel girl. But are you a Marvel or a D.C.
kind of girl?
[00:03:18] Speaker B: Here's the problem.
I don't really know.
I like superheroes, but I can't tell who's from what. And so, yeah, I apologize if I've just offended lots of people with that. I'm not as aware of this.
[00:03:30] Speaker A: That's okay. I think you got to be really. I mean, even when we're watching Marvel movies, at the movies, first of all, my son is like, don't ask me any questions, mom, of who's what. We're just going to watch it and I'll tell you afterwards, because I'm like, who's that? Who's that? He's like, shh. Just. No. You know, so he's. Yeah. When you're, like, super into it, you just. Yeah.
And he tends to go on his own to the movies to watch it, and doesn't. We don't go as a family anymore to watch Marvel movies, which is really. Yeah, that's it.
[00:04:03] Speaker B: I feel like there's. There's a lot of assumed knowledge as well, because there's, like, things that happen and there's background knowledge that people who are into it will know.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:10] Speaker B: And I'm like, oh, look at that guy flying and doing a thing. That's wonderful. But, like, I've got no idea.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: Who is he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, definitely. It's definitely inside scoop if you don't know these people.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: So, okay, so I've introduced you as the generosity guy. Um, so why did you call yourself that? And where did it actually start?
[00:04:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it's probably in the last maybe three or four years, I've leaned into it from that perspective. I've been working in fundraising for a long time, kind of with World Vision for a bit, and now with opportunity and like. So my. My role is to connect with our supporters and engage them in their philanthropy and.
And help them find purpose in that.
And early on in this role, I was quite uncomfortable with the concept of sitting down with someone and asking them to make a donation, because I felt like I was asking them to do something they didn't want to do. And it was just this Weird internal conflict that I had, not wanting to put people on the spot, not wanting to be seen as someone who was just leeching off of people.
But over time, I kind of realized that asking people to step in and make a donation and become generous is actually a gift to them, giving them an opportunity to participate and do something wonderful with their.
With their finances. And the benefits of generosity are quite extraordinary from your physical, emotional, and spiritual sides.
And so as I realized that, I thought, well, I'm actually offering people something of value and leaning into that, and kind of ended up going, well, I understand generosity and the benefit, and I'd really love to talk to people about that. Labeled myself as the generosity guy. And that helped me become really comfortable with the role of asking people to donate and to give of their finances without necessarily getting a tangible product in return. It's not a thing that you can buy and sell, but there is some incredible benefits that come when people do donate. So that's kind of the long and short of it.
[00:06:19] Speaker A: Wow. Wow, that's so good. So good.
So I've. I've looked at your Instagram page, and a quote on it you've written is, you say, try that thing you've been afraid to say out loud.
So obviously this started as a dream or an inkling of, of thinking, how can I take generosity and make it into. You don't say it's a tangible product, but you've. You've produced something out of that. So make. When you quote, were you afraid personally to say out loud a dream you had actually made? And is this why you wrote a quote like that?
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Yes, that's the short answer. But, like, I think there's been so many things that I've been afraid to say out loud in life, generally, not wanting to look foolish to other people. And so I had this value where I would not necessarily go and do something or tell someone that I was doing something unless I could be sure that I was going to actually be able to achieve it. Therefore, not really setting any goals, therefore not really challenging myself, and just sort of sitting in this, I guess, inertia of life.
And so that particular quote that you've highlighted was actually part of a blog that I'd written about encouraging people to be generous with themselves from the perspective of judgment. Now, stick with me for a second.
My understanding, and this is kind of my experience, I think when I look at someone and I judge their behavior, which I suggest is not necessarily a great thing to do, but the reason I do that is because what they are struggling with and not. And failing at and perhaps not doing the best in is something that I would actually like to do myself or something that I struggle with myself. So there's a real big connection between what I see other people failing in and what I would like to try and do, but I'm too afraid to. So I just sit back on the sidelines and I judge.
And so I. In that blog post, I encourage people to, hey, you know, just give yourself a break.
Let go of that. You know, kind of let people do what they want to do. You don't need to judge them, you don't need to take care of them. You don't need to put yourself in a place where you want to feel morally superior. Just step back and look at his. Look at what you want to do and then maybe articulate what it is that you want to achieve. I want to try this thing. I want to run a race. I want to write a book. I want to try for a new job. I want to learn a new skill and then say that out loud and then try it and try to release people into that space of not having to carry the burden of judgment and fear. But step into a freedom of, I'm going to try something and even if it doesn't work, that's okay.
[00:09:13] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I think. I think what you said, Kyron, you hit nail on the head. We tend to box ourselves in in our dreams, and we are so afraid of it, egg on our face and looking silly and failing that we don't even see start.
We don't even try, you know, and then, like you said, the judgment comes that, oh, you know, if you actually see someone doing their dream, oh, well, it's okay for them. They can do this, this and this, but they've actually not scared to fail and go, you know what? If it all fails, it's okay. At least I had to go. At least I did my best and tried.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: And the learning for me is in the failure. And so I'm becoming more and more comfortable.
Still not all the way there. I think everything that I write and everything that I talk about is essentially me talking to myself or writing to myself, because this is all a journey that I'm on.
And so I am still on this journey of, okay, let's become comfortable with trying this thing. And if this blows up in my face, what's the worst that can happen? Well, I'd look pretty stupid. All right, well, I'm okay with that. Let's take that on. And that gives me the Freedom to try something out.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And I heard. I read a quote the other day by Bill Johnson, and it said, God sent the comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, because we feel uncomfortable. So he sends the comforter, and. And that's where you lean on the Holy Spirit, because he's gonna, you know, through that uncomfortableness, he's gonna make you feel comfortable.
[00:10:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:47] Speaker A: So it's been Covid season the past year.
So in this generosity sort of frame of mind, what's been the biggest surprise that's happened to you and the biggest setback in this season, and how did you actually overcome it?
[00:11:05] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think the biggest surprise for me is people's capacity to be generous.
So, thinking specifically about kind of opportunity and the fundraising that we do, like, there's a.
There's a spectrum of supporters that I've come across in the last 12 months. Like, there's those that have gone, hey, I've been really hit hard by Covid, and I'm not going to be able to give any money to this year or not going to be able to give as much, but I still want to be involved. And so that's their season. And there are those that have gone. I'm not that affected, so I'll still give the same. And then there are those that have gone, I've done really well during COVID I'm going to give more. And so we look back on last, like, 2020, and there was bushfires in Australia, and then Covid hit, and it was just uncertainty and to get people to, you know, the work that opportunity does is international. So we're in India and we're in Indonesia. So we were thinking, how do we engage Australians in international work when really they're just trying to figure out how they're going to survive in the next little next few months. How are they going to keep things going when this is just. We don't know. We've never experienced this before as a generation.
And so we were surprised at just the generosity of people and their desire to help out and their willingness to support international work. So our fundraising did quite well. And so what that means is we were able to continue all our programs that we committed to. So that was a real, real surprise and a thrill. We were really excited about that.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:45] Speaker B: I guess the greatest challenge is not being able to sit with people face to face.
I think I generally enjoy meeting with people face to face because I can get a bit of an understanding of who they are and their context and their mannerisms and how the Conversation is going. And I. I mean, I'm better in person than I am over the phone and reluctantly say that to you as we talk over the phone, but I really enjoy doing that. And so for a while last year, we lost the ability to do that.
And for our team, we've got our head offices in Sydney, and I work in Perth. I'm the only staff member in Western Australia. So from that perspective, watching our team transition from all working from home and over zoom and seeing them struggle with that, and then me trying to support them in that, because I've been doing that for years.
I work in isolation all the time. So there was a greatest challenge for me, and then there was a challenge for the organization of trying to transition into different working environments.
[00:13:54] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah. It's almost like you were set up ready for this season.
[00:13:59] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:14:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:00] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. It was kind of like I kept saying to myself, I'm built for this time. Like, apart from not being able to meet with our supporters face to face, I am built for this.
[00:14:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:08] Speaker B: To work in isolation, to, you know, kind of get that. Get myself motivated when I'm. When it's just me, because that's what I would normally do. So. Yeah, that was interesting.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: Yeah. I love the way God works. It's so good. It's so.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:14:25] Speaker A: So this podcast is obviously called Wounded and on the Run. And people are thinking, why have you called Karen on with the generosity?
But I read a quote the other day from Pastor Maria Durso, and she talked about generosity, and it said. She said, breaking your jar. This is what generosity is to her, Breaking your jar of anointing and pouring it out onto someone else's life. And that this conversation is you taking your valuable scars that you've had wounds from church, maybe, or. Or from life, and just your. You've.
I've invited you onto this show, but you've been generous enough to go, you know what? I'm going to show people my valuable scars.
And just.
And that's the whole idea of this wounding on the run is to help people share their wounding, but also do it in a healthy way in a conversation that sometimes we don't have around church life, just shedding light into dark areas where the enemy moves around. And we just open it up, open the windows, and let God's light shine through.
So if, as a listener, if you're not aware of Wounded and On the Run, it's actually, I'm writing a book about the North American elk and the parallels between the ability of the elk who when he get. When they get wounded by a hunter, they actually run and they, they leave this thing called a blood trail. So the hunter looks for the blood trail and it can track down the elk and the parallels between a wounded Christian and the hunter, Satan firing shots at us. And we leave this blood trail for years sometimes to fame to follow. And until we actually find the fight, like surrender, stop running and find the blood trail that Jesus left at the cross just for him to heal our wounds.
That's where we find the healing. Because in Isaiah 53, 5 it says, but he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities, the punishment that brought us peace upon him. And by his wounds we are healed. And that is exactly why we're talking about, in this space about wounds. And Kyron has been generous enough to share some of his story.
So I want to ask you, Kyron, you've been around church for a while. So how long have you been in church life? And do you have a role, a volunteer or a leadership role?
Tell the listeners a little bit about that.
[00:17:13] Speaker B: Yeah, so I was essentially born into the church. So I've been around the majority of, well, most of my life in church life at some level. And I've held different positions in different churches. So I've been a pastor at one church in Adelaide looking after small groups for a little bit whilst working for World Vision. At the same time, I've held sort of lay preaching positions. I've been volunteer worship pastor in a church recently. So.
Yeah, involved at different levels in different churches. I just kind of journeyed through.
Yes, it's been an interesting, interesting time.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: Wow. So there's not much you haven't really done in church.
So in these roles, in this pastoral role and in the lay preaching, what, what have you discovered about yourself personally as you fulfill these roles?
[00:18:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I've been thinking about this and perhaps this is a big glib, but what I've discovered is maybe working for a church is not me.
[00:18:24] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:18:26] Speaker B: So from the practice perspective, I have a huge amount of appreciation for any pastor or minister who can get up and preach back to back each week. I think that takes a huge amount of effort and vulnerability as well.
For me, when I would preach it, it'd be once every period of time. And the amount of work that I've put into it and stress that I would feel at different times was pretty large because, you know, you want to be able to speak.
I guess my mantra is to speak words to bring life for people.
So that carries a lot of weight. But then, you know, my own insecurities as well, like this part of me that just. I really like people to like me and think that I know what I'm talking about, so that kind of is at play.
And so churches are an interesting environment because it's not just the institution, it's the people that you connect with, and people come from all different backgrounds, and they bring their. Their own baggage into it.
And so it's. It can be. It can be a challenging environment to be in.
[00:19:32] Speaker A: Yeah. So in. Do you.
During church life, do you. Have you ever felt left out? Like, have you had wounding from being left out or overlooked or just been ignored? Because I know I. I've struggled with that. The. The, like a sense of belonging, you know. Have you ever felt like that?
[00:19:51] Speaker B: Yeah, at different times. And I think probably one of the greatest challenges I've had with church in general was, I guess, when my marriage broke down.
So my. My first.
My first wife, I had had two children to her, and she.
The story goes, like, I was actually. I was preaching in church on that Sunday morning, and then. So my wife had a chat to me this Sunday afternoon and just said, look, I want to ask you to move out.
And so I was in this real. Just turmoil now. We've been doing some. A bit of work before that, and it just kind of hadn't got to the place where it was where she was happy to go forward, but, like, this real place of being on the platform on a Sunday morning, and then Sunday afternoon, ringing the senior minister and going, I need a place to stay.
I don't have a home anymore.
That was just incredibly challenging. And the feeling of brokenness, the feeling of being a mess, and almost like you're this overflowing toxicity, which you don't want to get your.
I don't know if I can say crap on this podcast, but, you know, get that onto people that want that because they've got these really good lives, and you don't want to contaminate them with the stuff that you're going through. Yeah, that was my mentality in that time. And so, you know, it was.
It was a really difficult place.
And the motivation or that the challenges in that time was like, I. I had a real, Real difficulty in actually creating intimacy with people.
So have done some. Some counseling work since then, and we'll continue to do so because, you know, we're all on a long journey that I don't think ever finishes. But understanding that I feel like God had been Tapping me on the shoulder for a while and saying, hey, there's some things that I want to. Want to talk to you about, things that I want to work through with you.
And I just kind of kept him at arm's length, and then I sort of kept those that were supposed to be intimate with me at an arm's length and would not necessarily build deep relationships with people, because deep down I thought if they got to know me, then they will figure out that I'm not actually that nice of a guy, not that good of a guy, and they'll. They'll reject me, they'll walk away.
And the irony of that is, in doing that, my wife went, I can't have a relationship with you like this, and so rejected me and walked away because I didn't let her in.
And so that was. That was a pretty difficult thing to overcome and to understand.
But I tell you, like, sitting in some of those moments. And I turned up to church every single Sunday after that.
But the longest journey that I took was from the car in the car park to the foyer of the church. That was the scariest place, because I just, again, felt like I was a huge failure.
Felt like that people wouldn't want to know me and wouldn't know what to do with me. And I can understand that because there's been friends and family that I've known that have had.
Their marriages have broken down as well. And I didn't know what to say. I didn't know how to talk to them in that space. So we just avoid them. And that. That happened to me in church as well, with different people.
So, yeah, that's probably one of the main times when that behavior happened.
[00:23:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's when we start running, you know, because we're like, I don't even know how to deal with it. And I think when. And it's like God is saying, yeah, this is the place you need to be, even though it does feel terrible. And you think, why did this happen?
I think actually, in that space, you actually learn to understand that God is your defender.
And. And then you can.
The. The wounds start to heal, but you got to do that surrendering, you know, you got to say, okay, God, it's all fell apart. I. I've got to cling to you.
So being at that pastoral, you know, that role, and I don't know whether you kept that role going while you were going through this, but when you got to talk to other people about, you know, your faith and. And how God has seen you through things and that, but you're going through pain yourself and you're going, where are you, God in the pain? How do you keep telling people that God is still good even in your pain?
[00:24:45] Speaker B: Sometimes you can't.
You're not there yet. But I think it's.
It comes with experience.
And I think the more that I would share with people, the more that other people came out and said, yeah, I've experienced something similar, or, you know, there's a lot of couples that I connected with went, yeah, we had a time of separation and then we were able to work it out and come back together. Now I wasn't able to do that in my situation, but I just. The goodness of God came in community. For me, when those people who had the capacity to be real and had some of that journey and had some of that pain that they were able to share, like, oh my gosh, I'm not alone, I'm not the only person who's experienced this.
And it just felt like you were seen and known, which was really powerful. And I think there were times when even.
There were times when I felt like God really spoke to me quite powerfully in amongst the pain and the turmoil and the feeling of brokenness. I remember sitting in a service on a Sunday morning and one of the comments that my mum said early to me in this kind of the relationship breakdown was like, well, it looks like you have an opportunity in the crisis.
And I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what it is. I want to be able to use this to grow and develop.
God finally got my attention and did some work, but I wanted to be faithful to that and I didn't want to miss something, I didn't want to do something stupid and then kind of end up thinking long term, like, if I. If we do end up kind of separating and I find another person and I get married again, I don't want to set up the exact same relationship because that's what I would consider a failure because that's just doing the same thing over again. That didn't work the first time.
And so I remember sitting in the church service and God kind of whispering to me because I was feeling insecure in the journey. And he said, hey, do you trust me?
I said, of course I do, but I don't trust myself.
And in saying that, I was just saying, I don't trust myself to hear from you. I don't trust myself to understand what it is that you're saying to me or where it is that you want me to go.
And then his response to that was, I created you.
I know you. I know how to communicate to you. You can trust me.
And that was, all of a sudden, in that moment was just this relief of, oh, I don't need to try and work through this process to get as much out of it, but just allow God to guide me through it. And that was a really powerful moment of. Of, I guess that first step of. Of healing and restoration.
[00:27:35] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so good.
And. And like I said before, it's. That. Is that surrendering, and it's just knowing that Jesus just loves you and you don't have to do anything. You don't have to be anything. You just.
You're just there in your brokenness. And God's going, I've got you. I. I've. Yeah, just trust me. Just trust me. And I've got you. And you talked about people who came alongside you because church is a community of believers. And, you know, I think that when one suffers, we. We can all suffer. You know, there's the body of Christ.
So you said, even from an outside perspective, you couldn't even see reaching out to yourself, you know, so how did these people in church actually see your brokenness and. And reach in? You know, they lent in and. And they weren't afraid of the mess.
How. How did they do that?
[00:28:32] Speaker B: Was just space.
You know, it was. It was constant. Like, you know, there's a rhythm of. Of connecting and catching up. There was a pastor that I met with, you know, every week, and as soon as he heard what was happening, he said, I'm your guy in this. Let's. Let's journey together.
And I can't tell you how much that meant and how much that still means to me to have someone in my corner to go, whatever's going on for you, I'm with you. Let's do this. And he'd experienced something similar himself, so he knew what it was like, and he had that capacity to hold space.
But there was other couples as well that would invite me and we'd have meals and we'd connect and we'd catch up, and they would just. They had, I guess, the ability to sit in the challenge and the mess and the conversation without judgment, without being uncomfortable, without wanting to fix things, but just allowed me space to kind of talk some things through and love me in that place. And I think, which I'm in awe of, because up to that point, I had no capacity to do that to anyone else.
Sure, I could have a conversation, but to Sit in the space with them, to sit in the mess with them.
I don't know if I would have been able to do that, but they did that for me. And then it was in that process, I realized that if you do that to someone, that doesn't make you messy, you don't get stuff on you. Like, that's actually this beautiful moment where.
Where healing and restoration can take place because you sit in this vulnerable, broken space. And I think what I've learned in that is. And one of the greatest gifts that I've taken out of it is that God's not surprised by these things.
He doesn't wake up one morning. Well, he doesn't wake up because he doesn't sleep. But he doesn't wake up one morning and go, oh, wow, look at the mess you're in. I did not see that coming. That is a real surprise me. Yeah, he knows. And when we are in that.
That depth, that darkness and sitting in our mess, he meets us there. He's waiting for us there. He's sitting there going, excellent, you're here. Now let's. Let's journey together. I've been waiting for this moment. And so that, for me, was a really powerful shift in how I thought about it.
[00:30:54] Speaker A: That's so good.
And I'm so. I. I applaud you that you continue to keep pressing in and going to church, even in your mess, even in the wounding.
Because a lot of people, and a lot of people listening probably have been wounded either in church or out of church, and they just keep running and they won't. They won't. I mean, I left church when I was 15, and I didn't come back till I was like 27.
And I just ran.
I just ran and ran and ran until finally I went, oh, something is missing. I need to come back. But shame can keep you running. You know, you can feel that shame. And then you think, I don't deserve good things. I don't deserve God's love. I don't deserve him coming into my mess because I've run away and I've.
It's like you've let him down or you've let people down and, and, and that, and like you said, in that moment, he's going to rewrite your story. You know, when, when you surrender, he's like, this is the rewriting of your story now.
And people who, like yourself and who's come out and, and got these valuable scars now, and someone listening who is probably in the same situation you've just described, and gone through.
What would you say to them?
If they feel like they're going to keep running and no one is leaning in, what advice would you give to them?
[00:32:36] Speaker B: So there's a quote that comes to mind and the quote is, shame is a lie that somebody else tells about you.
Guilt and shame are a different thing. So guilt in my mind is outstate. Like it's, you know, we're, we're sinful, like we fall short. And so therefore there's, you know, we're guilty of that. But shame is a completely different element. And shame is not something which God uses.
And so, yeah, shame being that lie that somebody else tells about you. You. Because one of the lies that I would tell is like, I, I'm not worthy. I don't have the capacity to get through this. I'm not even sure if I can love people properly.
How do I be a dad to my kids? Like, I've let them down. They're going to be, their lives are going to be ruined. Like all of that kind of thing.
And to, to kind of recognize that and go, well, actually that's, that's not true. And going into those, those truths about who God thinks we are because he knows that he created it and so his thoughts around us. Me, I was taking the Psalm 139. It was like fearfully and wonderfully made. You know, you hit me in my mother's womb.
There's this huge understanding of, yeah, I'm known by God, but not in the. I know who you are, but I'm known and loved and, and valued regardless of anything that I do.
And then was the Romans 8, 28. Like it's, you know, can't remember the actual scripture of it off the top of my head right now, but it's the idea of him being able to work through us regardless of who we are and what we've done.
So there's those key elements that came out for me and I would encourage anyone sitting in that space in this moment, like, you might feel overwhelmed, you might feel broken, you might feel disconnected and without a way forward.
And I get that there was at the same time when I was kind of preaching at this church and I was working for a reasonably high profile Christian ministry, and I went to both of those places and went, hey, this is what's happening.
And both of them kind of pulled me down from that platform.
And I can understand that. But it felt like I was, I was rubbish. It felt like I was dirty rags.
[00:35:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:07] Speaker B: And so, yeah, that's a really challenging place. To be, but knowing that that's where God makes you.
[00:35:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:16] Speaker B: Knowing that that's the start. And what you do in this moment is going to have an impact on your life and on the lives of those around you for a long time to come.
And it's about being faithful to the journey of what God is calling you to do. So, you know, have. It's an old phrase. Like, it sounds simple, but it's not easy. No, it's just. It's kind of being courageous.
It's. It's making those small decisions consistently going, okay, well, I'm going to.
From a practical perspective, I'm going to just spend time reading and contemplating scripture and, you know, not the whole Bible, but maybe just choose a verse and go, this is my verse for the moment. I'm just going to sit with this and allow God to speak to me in that. In that brokenness.
Having the courage. And I created a list of people who I would ring when I was having a difficult time.
Because there was times when I was having a difficult time and I felt like I had no one to go to.
So when I was feeling better, I went, I don't want to do that. I want to be able to talk to someone when I'm having. Having a really dark day.
So I created a list of people and I asked people to join my list, and they're like, yeah, absolutely.
So I would ring those people when I was having. So have proactive, courageous acts. And then if you are in the space. Yeah. Turn up to church and be aware. Like, some of my most anxious and uncomfortable moments have been either walking in or walking out of a church service just feeling judged and probably not being judged, but, you know, feeling that and just having those courageous acts every week, just being there because I knew that I didn't have the strength to get through this on my own. And that was my way that I would connect with God, was through the service, and it was through the music and the worship.
And so for me, it was worth that feeling of discomfort and anxiety. And over time, there was people who gathered and were so gracious and loving and helped me through that. So it may feel like it's the most difficult thing in the world to do, and, you know, it could be, but it's absolutely worth it to. Yeah. To allow God to minister to you in that space.
[00:37:42] Speaker A: No, that's really good. That's really good. And because you're the generosity guy, I think sometimes do. I mean, I've struggled with forgiveness, you know, because when we talk about our wounds, there's got to be forgiveness attached to it.
How do you. How, how did you forgive and. And let those wounds heal?
Because, you know, if we're not generous in forgiving, I mean, God forgave us first and he died for our sins. So if we don't forgive, then, you know, it, we can't move on. So how, how did you forgive in that time?
[00:38:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think I have a great answer for this yet, but it's just, it's a process and recognizing that if I'm not forgiving someone that has no impact on them whatsoever, it only impacts me and if it impacts my relationships and my ability to do life really well.
So, yeah, it's hard to. I found it challenging to forgive when there is hurt so deep.
But yeah, for me, it's kind of taking on responsibility for what I can control and letting go of responsibility of things that I can't control. I can't control what people have said or people have done or people have, yeah, have acted out, but I can control my response to that. And so it all from my perspective. And this kind of, when it comes, like the generosity guy comes into it, is looking past the behaviors and the words that people say and do and seeing what's happening for them and seeing what's motivating them and seeing their insecurity and their fear and their pain and their perhaps trauma as well, and going, oh, I can see why they did that. I can see that they acted out of that space. Again, sounds really simple, but it's not easy. This is one of the most difficult things that I try to do and will continue to try to do for the rest of my life. You know, even in conversation with my, with my now wife or, you know, with my kids, like how they respond and going, well, I see your response. I'm choosing not to react to what it is that you're saying and doing, because on the surface level, that's really hurtful to me. What's, what's coming across. But I look beyond that and go, wow, you're struggling right now. You're feeling really anxious about this thing and therefore you're lashing out. How can I help you in that?
So, and I, you know, I feel like I see that in the life of Jesus, like the people would come to him and they would have this surface level response and he'd look past it and go, you have a great need and I have exactly what you need to fulfill that.
So that, that's my guidance for I Guess forgiveness and offering generosity for people in communication. Again, I don't have this nailed by any stretch of the imagination, but it's something that I'm striving for.
[00:40:49] Speaker A: Well, who does? I mean, it's a. Sometimes it's a daily process. And I think what people tend to forget about forgiveness is they think I've got to feel it before I can do it, you know, before I can forgive. But that's not. It's normally the other way around. You've got to keep going, I forgive, I forgive. I forgive that person. And. And, you know, the next day it's, oh, forgive them again. I forgive them. I forgive them. Because.
And. And in that space, it's just, God, you've got it. You. You got me.
[00:41:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
And praying for the best for them as well. That's. That's probably another. Another level of going, not only do I forgive you and kind of release that. That anger and bitterness that I have, but I'm also going, God, I hope you just bless them.
Would you do wonderful things in their life and through them? And that all of a sudden takes it from a relationship between kind of you and them like this, this thing that you've experienced to, oh, good things for other people because of them. That's.
That helps shift it a little bit again, you know, still struggling with that, but working on it.
[00:41:55] Speaker A: Oh, no, I don't think we'll ever get it 100 right.
And that's why we need God, definitely.
[00:42:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:02] Speaker A: So in that vein, how do you.
How do you keep following the blood trail that Jesus left behind at the cross? How do you continue walking in that healing in that space and not going back to the mess? Because the enemy is very good at saying, you know, you know, throwing the shame on you and firing the arrows. And so how do you keep following that blood trial and not keep looking at behind and keep moving forward?
[00:42:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it chops and changes. Like, there are times when I do sit back into it and go, such a failure. I'm not even sure if I know if I have the capacity to love my wife now, as I would really like to.
But what my life philosophy comes down to is the moment in scripture when Jesus is teaching and his teaching gets really challenging for the people around him. He's got this crowd and he starts going, all right, I'm just going to make this teaching quite challenging for you. And all these people walk away because they're like, this is too hard. I can't do this.
And he turns to his disciples and said, Are you going to go too? And they. Their response is, well, where else is there to go? Like, only you have this message of life.
And I feel like I connected with that for a really long time.
Jesus is the center point in my life because what else is there that is going to provide me with purpose and fulfilling and fulfillment and love and a desire to help other people? Like, it's.
The message of generosity is straight out of the heart of God because he is a generous God. That's part of his character. So out of the overflow of that is generosity. And so I sit in that. And that my value of generosity is the value of the heart of God. So I have brought it in line with, okay, these are my values in life that distinctively align with the heart of God.
And so if I was to walk away from that, then all of a sudden my. My paradigm, my values would shift and. And not have any connection to anything outside of. Of me. And that's not a healthy place to be.
So, yeah, I think that's what it comes down to.
[00:44:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's all a learning curve. It's all a journey, isn't it? You know, it's.
And you. And I always say you learn so much more in the valleys than the mountaintops. The mountaintop experiences are awesome, but, oh, boy, do you learn so much in the valleys. And you learn to really know who God is, how good he is, how gracious he is, how.
Yeah, just. Yeah, you just have an. A more appreciation and a deeper love for Him. You know, your faith doesn't go higher. I think it just goes deeper. Deeper in those valleys.
[00:45:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:01] Speaker A: So I'm gonna ask you one more question, and then we're gonna wrap this up.
So what's the one piece of advice to someone who's listening right now? What is the one piece of advice that you would give to them if they are wounded, if they're running, if they're hurting, if they are in a space right now where they're just like, I don't know what to do. What. What would you say to them?
[00:45:31] Speaker B: I think it's not necessarily something that I would say to do, but it's a space to sit in.
And one of the things that comes to mind when I have had the opportunity to sit and pray with people, one of the strongest things that comes through is just the heart of God, like his love for the person that I'm praying, praying for. And perhaps that's also a reflection of what I. What I really value is just no matter where you are what you're doing, what you're thinking, how far you think you've fallen from where you want to be. There is just this heart of God looks at you and says, yeah, I see you and I love you. And you are fearfully and wonderfully made. There was no mistake in you. There was no accidents.
You're here on purpose. You're here because I wanted you here and I wanted to do something in you and that's powerful and that's going to be healing and it's going to restore and it's going to bless you. And you know what? It's going to bless other people as well. So sit in this space.
So I think that's probably, probably the message alongside the idea of God's not surprised.
Yeah, he's not shocked by what happens to us and sometimes what we do to ourselves, you know, and so that's. He's not thrown off by that. And a lot of the time he uses it for his good. That's Romans 8, 28. He does all, all things for the good of those who love him. Yeah, I got there.
[00:47:03] Speaker A: I didn't have a Bible handy. I couldn't help you out. I'm sorry.
[00:47:06] Speaker B: No, no, totally fine, totally fine. Happy to get myself lost and found again.
But, yeah, he. He can and will use this for his glory.
[00:47:17] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. Ah, that is such a good note to finish on, Karen. It's. That's so good.
So, listeners, I hope you. I'm sure you took away a pot of gold right there because, I mean, even I'm like, this is, this is gold nuggets right here. It's. It was so good. And I just want to say thank you so much, Karen, for being so generous with your time, so generous with opening up and being vulnerable today on the Spacious room.
Thank you.
[00:47:50] Speaker B: It was a pleasure. Thank you, Wendy.
[00:47:57] Speaker A: Thank you for joining me today in the spacious room. I invite you to join me in my other rooms, my website, www.thebigvoiceonline.com and my Big Voice YouTube channel. See you in the room next time.
